Curse

Mordakai · Nov 14, 2005, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ailyrr Merlena

Haven't brought firestorm with me since I was able to get Phoenix at Courthouse (which I did the old-fashioned way and actually fought to get to- of course, ask anyone from Pal'drem how many places they had to take me to).

And I dropped Phoenix as soon as I had Rodgorts Invocation.

In any case, even these one-hit spells are AoE, and no, they don't make them all runaway like they first did, but they still will break aggro off the warrior.

Which allows your Warrior to do crits.

Say, does anybody know if "Cyclone Axe" will do crits to all creatures close to you that are running away? Timed right, this could be devastating...

Darkest Dawn · Nov 14, 2005, 05:02 PM // 17:02

One thing that does concern me on this update is how the aoe's will kill monster's resolve. Gaile used the picture of a kitten sizing up it's prey, but we need to realize things like battle lust, heroics, and an attempt to finish off a wounded enemy will many times cause someone to not flee danger.

Should an enemy flee a 10dp a sec firestorm when they are one shot away from a kill?

Look at heroics like the beaches of Normandy during WW II. Those guys went INTO the fire to win the beaches, not everything looks for the easy way out.

Case in point. I'm fighting a baddie and they are down from 500 hp to 52. I have 500 hp myself, and still have 423 left. Should I stay and finish off the baddie or run from the firestorm that is doing 15 damage and has 6 seconds left? Personally, I would finish the kill.

Also, when my warrior is doing 2-3 times the damage of the AOE, then shouldn't it run from me more so than the AOE?

I'm for the AI trying to back out when appropriate, but maybe there could be a calculated chance based on various stimuli.

I just don't think the blanket statement that smarter AI = run from AOE is well.... smarter, lol

delfin42 · Nov 14, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Just to see if I was somehow wrong about the effects of all of this, I took my E/N out of mothballs this weekend, bought a Superior Fire rune for him, loaded up his bar with Fire skills and took on Grenth's, Sorrow's and Thunderhead.

Result: Frankly, I like it BETTER now than it was a week ago. Fire Magic is anything _but_ dead. Certain tactics that were previously used with Fire Magic may be dead, but that's not the same thing at all.

All four elements are still very viable, and anyone who claims otherwise is lacking in imagination.

Oh, and thank you for driving the price of Superior Fire down to 7 plat.

wind master · Nov 14, 2005, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfin42

Just to see if I was somehow wrong about the effects of all of this, I took my E/N out of mothballs this weekend, bought a Superior Fire rune for him, loaded up his bar with Fire skills and took on Grenth's, Sorrow's and Thunderhead.

Result: Frankly, I like it BETTER now than it was a week ago. Fire Magic is anything _but_ dead. Certain tactics that were previously used with Fire Magic may be dead, but that's not the same thing at all.

All four elements are still very viable, and anyone who claims otherwise is lacking in imagination.

Oh, and thank you for driving the price of Superior Fire down to 7 plat.

I've had similiar experiences in those places, plus a few more with my Fire Elemental too. Played with henchies and in groups.

Not only are AoE spells still viable, but if you finesse it enough, you can still trap monsters in one. If there's one big change with Elementals and groups their in, movement is much more important, not just stand in place and blast away.

So I rather like the update, what it did to the henchies and the monsters. I find it a lot more fun now.

calamitykell · Nov 14, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

I would also suggest that more types of Elementalists are now viable in PvE. Really, when was the last time you saw "GLF Hydromancer to snare!"?

FFF_WarRaven · Nov 14, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Which allows your Warrior to do crits.

Say, does anybody know if "Cyclone Axe" will do crits to all creatures close to you that are running away? Timed right, this could be devastating...

don't bother this skill is usless against running foes, unless you get them as soon as they start running, it usually misses, Cyclone axe doesn't require a target for you to trigger it. Your prolly better off using a cripple or some sorta slow buff.

just thought of something also, how about a trapping ranger with umm spiked trap? then drop the aoe

or using everyone to trap the mob from different directions etc..create a true mob trap.

:::End Transmission:::

Loviatar · Nov 14, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by FFF_WarRaven

or using everyone to trap the mob from different directions etc..create a true mob trap.

:::End Transmission:::

ummm doesnt that defeat the purpose of farming?

a whole group working together...........un.......well maybe thinkable

delfin42 · Nov 14, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

ummm doesnt that defeat the purpose of farming?

Of SOLO farming.

One of the entire points of this exercise by A.Net is to defeat the purpose of solo farming.

entropy · Nov 14, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Feh. They don't run from one hit AoE's. It was Entropy who said that - he's stated he's not played for two days, and that he posts to get flames. He's a troll.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and you guys who claim "solo farming is dead": please go to Augury Rock, Intl district, and watch the WATERFALL of farming monks, hundreds of them, out the west exit. Guess what they're doing?

Hint: They're not whining about that solo farming is dead.

updated again on the 11th tested it. 12/13 and today the 14th did not play omg math pwned u

Magnus Creed · Nov 14, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Ive only scanned this thread, so some of this may be covered already. This is something i posted on my guild's forum, ColdBlackEyes. ANet should implement a "Scatter Rating" or each unit in the game. This number would correspond to a % chance that the creature would run when hit with an AoE spell, with the number increasing after each hit.

For example, Hellhounds might be 1 SR, and Maguuma Blademasters might be a 6. The Hellhound gets hit with a AoE spell, and has a 10% chance of running from the fray. If it doesn't, then the next hit it has a 20% chance of fleeing.
Consequently the Blademaster would get a 60% chance of running the first hit; and a 70% chance of running the second hit and so on.
No creature other then UW creatures and boss creatures should have over 70% chance to run, that way every normal creature in PvE has a pretty good chance of taking a few hits before getting out of the AoE spell.

Furthermore, you can have some other variable that can affect the % chance of fleeing, like if the unit the creature is attacking is at less then 20% health, then it might have a -15% chance of running.

I think this would balance out who would logically run, and would also allow for some variation in what happens. Having every single unit react the same isnt realistic. Im sure some ettins would get in a battle rage and not run away, but keep pummelling no matter what. Its just like people...not everyone would react immediately the same way to a situation.

Loviatar · Nov 14, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by delfin42

Of SOLO farming.

One of the entire points of this exercise by A.Net is to defeat the purpose of solo farming.

i did know that but you need to be more exact.

they are trying to stop solo farming in the top areas of the game and are not worried about the lower ones.

and wait for the next fix coming up where the enemy follows you around a corner to shoot you instead of simply shooting a wall.

oh the screams that will follow that one

Loralai · Nov 14, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Yet another bug to add to my ever growing list..

Partied up with henchies and one guild member. Everyone dies but my ranger. I use Storm Chaser, run for a bit and lose the enemies. I begin my jaunt back into the 1st room (of SF) announcing along the way "I'm using Rebirth on FellowGuildmate". From nowhere, completely off my radar 2 stone summits come chasing after me. Ummm...they weren't even on MY radar screen. Advanced AI is one thing, but they are now reading?!?!

This problem did not occur everytime when I used rebirth without announcing my intentions first.

This problem either needs to be fixed or the Rebirth skill is rendered useless.

ChoKILLate[FDG] · Nov 14, 2005, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by wind master

I've had similiar experiences in those places, plus a few more with my Fire Elemental too. Played with henchies and in groups.

Not only are AoE spells still viable, but if you finesse it enough, you can still trap monsters in one. If there's one big change with Elementals and groups their in, movement is much more important, not just stand in place and blast away.

So I rather like the update, what it did to the henchies and the monsters. I find it a lot more fun now.

For those of you who see that the AoE skills are still viable...keep in mind that they re-tweeked them on Friday. The update on Thursday completely nerefed them....there was a lot of complaint and then another updated came on Friday. This update is a lot less severe than Thursday's! Yes, most of the AoE spells are ok now, but some like firestorm still trigger the 'flight response' a bit too quick.

Keep the 2 seperate and very different updates in mind when responding.

What still sucks is when you corner a creature AoE him, and he runs through you! WTF?!

Loviatar · Nov 14, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

Yea, but didnt they confirm it was coming about 2-3 months ago?

they said the auction house would be AFTER observer mode is brought in and debugged and that was hopefully before Christmas (for OM)

watch something happen when everybody zooms in on the same thing maybe?

there will be bugs to squash trust me on this

Mordakai · Nov 14, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChoKILLate[FDG]

What still sucks is when you corner a creature AoE him, and he runs through you! WTF?!

That hasn't happened to me yet. Bug?

CKaz · Nov 14, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jibikao

Improving Monster's AI is just a "start". I am sure they'll make more changes later. Don't quit so soon yet.

Yeah it was a knee jerk reaction - the next day and update seems to be a LOT better. It's very frustrating tho to log so many hours, pick-up a second copy, and then the world is changed with no prelude.

And for me its one thing, but for getting the wife onboard just trying to learn how to play (on a laptop with it's touch-pad no less, yikes) and show her how classes can work together, well you can just imagine my love of the W/E build at that moment

A patch next day does show some real dedication.

My only objection here is that there was no warning of such a base level change, and honestly, who's trying these changes prior? I did minutes of playing and knew we were in huge trouble with the first patch. Similiarly minutes of play showed the improvement the next one brought.

I have no problems with mobs not sunning themselves under a firestorm for the whole duration, it's a bit too extreme of a way to get a tan. But quiet frankly mobs detecting 3/4 casting time AoE and running from a player before it even gets off, and even exiting its range - sorry but I don't see many/any REAL players doing that. And the impact has to be noted, such treatement KILLS point blank AoE, and makes target AoE (yes even one-offs) single target. I'll probably do more testing but as it stands its much much better.

So where I signed the petition day one to repeal the patch, I'd probably take my name off it with the last patch (if I could see how too). Mind you I wouldn't go as far to sign the opposing petition, I'd have to do a little more digging. Why am I not sold?

Any change - even the less drastic second patch - has consequences.
LavaFont, Symbol of Wrath might be more dual role, some damage but almost more defensive for one swarmed. Certain cheap repeating AoE may become a zone of melee protection for a time being. 'Travelling' AoE gets more interesting. Adding any kinds of slow into the mix.. you get my drift.

And of course AI is subjective. Those Charr warriors can kill my monk, or they can run from my symbol of wrath and allow me to catch up my hps. Hmm, what was the better thing to do? Players would have killed the monk.

PvP - I'm sure you could treat AI and hench there differently, separate from PvE, no? If you're engine can't handle that I'd be surprised - ie it appeared Char warriors seemed to care a bit less about repeating AoE than some others. Maybe they took into account what I said above

maybe not. They still ran though.

I was even thinking, try your new AI flavors in new or restrictive zones with such a disclaimer. Why change the world, why not open up new challenges instead (at the very least as a good precursor to allowing trickle-down). Maybe for your expansion - the new threat is just a bit more on the ball.

Farmers will find a way within varying these frameworks, sometimes even more easily than believed. How I'd solve UW I-monks or farm variants?

Your rending enemies are weak in UW, how many hps? Can be one-shot?
Why so weak? Make them reasonable - not Aataxe level, but representative of their level. And/or you tweaked protective bond, why not move to tweak protective spirit or give it exceptions? There are also a couple attacks that aren't effected by it, a few mobs and/or a high-powered hit or two with this..

What I don't get are some of the decisions made. You have #s on Ether Renewal? I understand it was a bit over the top, but that was for E/MO. I hadn't done a E/MO at that point and my E/ME wasn't even using it and didn't get the buzz about it for a bit into their career. Even then it was good some places, but had its drawbacks. Maybe a little tweak was in order.

But the net result is that it's too short and weak. Why not limit the enchantments and/or skip maintained ones? Instead, well once again it's off my rotation for consideration.

A lot revolves around Monks obviously. How about allow only highest active rune to subtract HP [and off topic, lighten the major rune hit to say 35-45hp so they get use]? They're so enchant heavy, there any well of profane users in UW, toss in some Chilibains in #s (good old jades of the deserts), enchanters that make you pay for having them on while removing, even nature renewals here and there to slow 'em down, signet slowers/make them cost energy, mobs that knock stances off when they see em - that might be tougher on legit groups tho too - or just all those neat attacks that do more damage with a stance on (you have savage slash for spell - good).

Smite smite smite.. ah the beauty of a whole line that sinks through armor like butter. Maybe that's a bit intense? The only elemental choice is an exhausting single nuke. Necros and Enchanters have some options obviously, but nothing quite like smite and of course it does extra in UW/to some mobs.

Again you've felt free to hit Lightning (ah chain lightning I knew ye well), why not a little re-balancing here? I think monks should be able to remove their own conditions a bit better, meanwhile they can damage like nobodys business. I play with my wife's warrior and refrain from letting loose half the time as I'm almost embarrased at how much damage I do and I'm keeping us all alive to boot. I don't think it'd be bad to even that out some.

You may have smite as a hook for those who'd avoid monk/everyone wants a monk, but then maybe more creative ways (expansion?) to open up -some- basic healing opportunities to other classes might be called for, not just limiting to self heal. IE what if the mesmer had an illusion of weakness they could pass on. Or Elementals pass on something like Aura of Restoration. Or Warriors have a heal signet to help others in a pinch still with their armor drop? It'd allow some freedom for groups needing/wanting 1-2-3 monks.

How far does the rabbit hole go right? Why can't mesmers, master of energy, help others regen nearly as well as necros? Maybe let them pass on channeling or other options? What if an elementalist could pass on conjure? But then are these thing bad, just make use of your second class for your combination? But it does point something out that Mo/? is the farmer, I don't believe anything else has been as successful nor needed so little else. [except maybe Bonnettis]

Anyways I know part of my (and maybe many peoples) frustation is there is no GW email, direct contact, suggestion forum on THAT site, etc. It's just 'boy I hope they read this, mine is on page 28...' but since I saw Gaile refer to the 'chicken without a head' in hers maybe it did get read

Maybe there's a test arena, I'd love to be part of it.
I know other MMOs have had 'em.. this is something that would have been less painful if first in such an arena, yes even publically, the app just points to another bed of servers [much smaller obviously] and let us get out and check it out. Let us post somewhere our response. Here we would have been catching the bugs that got through as well as feedback on the results.

Maybe you do that with your PvP guys. Well maybe that was the biggest disconnect. A lot of us play the PvE, and there is a danger of trampeling on that. You made it a LONG haul to ready for PvP with tons of unlocks, particularly if you want the best choices and variety/flexibility. I'm there for my key classes but find keeping regulars around to do so almost impossible, so I'm back to almost exclusively playing PvE with friends. Keep that experience in mind too with everything you do, it's a big part of pie.

PvP skills are often tweaked separately, and rarely has PvE mobs/AI/henchmen been a part of the puzzle. Where it is there is often rebalancing and tuning involved - for example my Enchanter lost the ability to charm PvP enemies in EQ. VERY disappointing but there was abuse, indeed my enchanter would pretty much go after other enchanters when they'd be running players into the guards doing fun things back to them like drowning them in the water until they fixed that. But I digress.

I'd say don't be afraid to at least go after the farming arena. If you don't want solo monks in UW you can stop it. Protective Spirit is the lynch-pin like Protective Bond was - that build is % damage. Any % damage that can stay on will get past it. Either a little more work on the UW line-up or a reasonable change to that spell is probably a good idea. And I'd rather see you address this or smite or that combination instead of having mobs run back and forth, like, you guessed it, a chicken with its head cut-off.

CKaz

calamitykell · Nov 14, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loralai

This problem did not occur everytime when I used rebirth without announcing my intentions first.

This problem either needs to be fixed or the Rebirth skill is rendered useless.

Drama class much?

Your 2 statements contradict each other. Please pick one...

Loralai · Nov 14, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Drama class much?

Your 2 statements contradict each other. Please pick one...

Rebirth is intended to be used from a distance. By saying it did not occur everytime that I didn't use the CTRL (announce) command I left the opening that it DID occur sometimes without the announcement. I guess I should have been more clear.

However, it is comments such as yours that discourage people from posting glitches, bugs, etc... on this forum to get other opinions. What gets me, is I have tried to voice my opinions without exclaiming that "All the people who like everything about this patch and have no complaints are WRONG." I have tried to play around with builds, test things, and report glitches and bugs that I have encountered, and ask for other opinions. meanwhile, you and your horde sit there waiting for someone to make a typo or say one thing you disagree with so you can pounce on them like fresh prey. Get over yourself. your opinion is not gold, everyone's holds weight.

On that note...consider me out of this forum. It's ridiculous to continue wasting my time.

calamitykell · Nov 14, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loralai

Rebirth is intended to be used from a distance. By saying it did not occur everytime that I didn't use the CTRL (announce) command I left the opening that it DID occur sometimes without the announcement. I guess I should have been more clear.

However, it is comments such as yours that discourage people from posting glitches, bugs, etc... on this forum to get other opinions. What gets me, is I have tried to voice my opinions without exclaiming that "All the people who like everything about this patch and have no complaints are WRONG." I have tried to play around with builds, test things, and report glitches and bugs that I have encountered, and ask for other opinions. meanwhile, you and your horde sit there waiting for someone to make a typo or say one thing you disagree with so you can pounce on them like fresh prey. Get over yourself. your opinion is not gold, everyone's holds weight.

On that note...consider me out of this forum. It's ridiculous to continue wasting my time.

"This did not happen everytime I did not call the action."

That to me sounds like it happened when you called the action, but didn't happen whenever you didn't call it. That there is a bug report, and with a simple solution until it is patched: Don't call the action.

However

"otherwise Rebirth is useless now"

is pure overreactive drama, which is typical in this thread.

Perhaps you wouldn't be discouraged if you posted concise bug reports and kept your overreactive drama for other kinds of posts. But no, it's my fault because I replied. Of course.

quickmonty · Nov 14, 2005, 07:56 PM // 19:56

It seems to me that a lot of this thread is an overreactive drama. To state one's views and counter views with well thought replies is constructive, but to criticise, react to that criticism and openly troll is counterproductive to an intelligent discussion. So much of this thread is a waste as it is off topic.

Note: Yes, I realise that this too can be considered off topic!